[yogibear]

Post Controversy at the GUKPT
This hand happened on my table between an unknown player on the big blind and Jeff Kimber in mid-position.

Jeff raised, everyone folded round to the big blind who re-raised, and Jeff called. The flop came A-9-4. Big blind bet out, Jeff called. Turn was another Ace. BB bet out again, Jeff called. River was a Jack. BB bet out again, Jeff pushed all-in (he had the BB well covered).

The other guy went into the tank for a couple of minutes, during which he put all his chips into one single stack. Finally, he put his hand on the stack and started moving it towards the line, but didn't say anything. As the chips approached the line, Jeff quickly flipped over pocket Jacks for a rivered full house. The other guy then pulled the stack back, and said he hadn't called as he didn't say anything and his chips hadn't crossed the line. Jeff went mad saying he clearly intended to call, but Mickey Wernick pointed out that Jeff shouldn't have exposed his cards so quickly. The tourney director was called over, she asked the player if he intended to call, and he admitted that yes he did, but once he saw the hand he then obviously didn't want to call. He turned over AK to show his trips, and the tourney director said if he intended to call, he should call and give up his stack. A few players at the table told her she was wrong, and that as he hadn't said anything or put them over the line, he was free to do what he wanted. After a few minutes of discussion, he finally agreed to give up his chips and leave the table. Jeff shook his hand and Mickey and a few of the other players told him he'd behaved like a gentleman for giving them up when he didn't need to, but it left a lot of discussion on the table after he'd gone, and everyone in agreement that the tourney director didn't really know how to deal with it.

I myself say if he didnt verbally make the call and didnt cross the line with his chips,then the ruling should be (your advantage)do you want to call or not.this will let players know not to disclose there cards too early,I wasnt on this particular table but one of my members of my forum were and they gave me all the details to which I disclose for the opinion of yourselves.

[NHGGULFO]

I have no doubt in my mind that you are right on this Yogi.

Now watch eveyone disagree!


LOL


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[Doublebubble]

[mrmacacan]

[psychodave]

Jeff should have waited until the call had been made verbally or the chips had crossed the line, he was in the wrong flipping his cards over before either of these had been done by the other player. The player even having admitted what his intentions were to the TD did not need to give his chips up now if there was an award for sportsmanship then he deff deserved that, but he had every right to pull his chips back and carry on...
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"The motto of chivalry is also the motto of wisdom; to serve all, but love only one. " IN HOC SIGNO VINCES "

[Chris235]

I've ran a few cards rooms and this has happened a few times to me.
Cos Jeff turned his cards over to soon, before the player had said if he was calling or putting his chips over the line.
Jeff hand would have been mucked. Cos his cards were turned over to soon.

His left over chips would have been returned to Jeff.
This is the rules for the WSOP and the WSOPE.

This is a very harsh rule. But cos he turned his cards over to soon, they are classed as mucked.

That is why you sould all listen to the dealers and turn your cards over when told.

[kipp]

The GUKPT rules are much the same as the Grosvenor house ones.

In this instant Jeff exposing his cards after making a bet would have the bet taken back and then it would be up to the BB (in this situation) to check or bet and Jeff would only be able to call or pass.

The TD was very wrong in asking if the guy intended to call, most people would obvisously reply NO to this question. Plus you are then saying that there are two rules for the same situation; if a player indended to then this happens, if they didn't intend to then the other happens...that is unacceptable and you cannot base a ruling on what a player would've done.

Also it makes no difference if he INTENDED to or not, as you all rightly point out:

he did not declare CALL
His chips did not cross the line.

Jeff created the situation by turning his cards prematurely and this gave the BB the opportunity to take advantage through his mistake. The BB is innocent of any wrongdoing in this situation.

This should have been a very simple ruling IMO, I've no idea what the TD was thinking

[cctv]

You can't take a bet back once it has been placed, the ruling is that the player who has made the fault by turning his cards over from my guess of impatience that he now knows he has the best hand.

The 2 rules i know in this situation are that verbals count as binding and chips across the line also.

A player can do whatever he wants behind the line in his area as intention to call is never a binding move.

Therefore the impatience of Kimber turning his cards over is now an advantage to the bb as Kimber made the mistake.

So the player can now fold or call, as he is all in, if Kimver had chips behind the bb could raise but Kimber could not re-raise he could only call.

That has always been the view i have seen and taken and believe to be true, i think the TD has made a poor judgement in this case and the bb player is very unlucky.

[kipp]

I think we are all in agreement that the TD was very wrong in this instant.

But just to clarify CCTV, that rule i mentioned is a grosvenor one and i know it well as i went over it many times.

If a player makes a bet and then exposes his cards, the bet is taken back and action is now on the other player who can check it down id he wishes, and as you say the player with turned cards can now only call or pass, they cannot raise.

If however it was a multiway pot and somone had called the bet and then he turned his cards while someone else was waiting to act, then the bet would stand but again would lose his right to reraise for the remainder of the hand.

These are grosvenor rules and ones they use for the GUKPT. Im sure the rule you mentioned was right for another house, as this is one of those rules that people and different companies differ on

[JonThomson]

jeff should ask if that's a call and not expose cards. other guy shouldn't be an angleshooting douche.

[edit - maybe not a douche because he agreed to call in the end, but that normally never happens]
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Jon Thomson
Pushing trash and rivering donkeys since 1982

"Expected Value is the term bad poker players use whenever they lose a big hand. The term comes from economics, and therefore it only exists in theory."

[Billyboy]

[barbara_johanssen]